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RideRed
December 12th, 2001, 10:22 AM
Guys and Gals,

Thanks for a very productive and enjoyable meeting last night! I hope I can continue to move the club ahead successfully as well as the last couple of great Presidents (Steve Breen and Scott Scheaffer) while I have been a member past two years. It was great to see you all, despite the weather not being conducive to riding. Above all, I think from our open discussion about SMR safety, we all agree that we need to for some guidelines for ALL members and guests of the club to keep the fun factor up and the injuries down.

I got to thinking about this on the drive home from the meeting, so I jumped on the Ďputer when I got in. I re-read "The Pace" article on our web site.

EACH OF YOU should read it again. Seriously.

Itís been a great common sense guideline for our rides. Itís not preachy, and not restricting. Itís just honest. I really felt that our SMR Ride Guide rules should come out of this document. As you all will see in the coming year, Iím not an avid rule maker. I personally am one who believes in "the government that governs best, governs least". With that in mind, Iíve boiled The Pace article down to a basic set of guidelines. These guidelines need to be followed and enforced. If approved, we will post this Ride Guide on the web site, and give out to new members and guests prior to rides.


SMR Ride Guide

Requirements & Licensing: Riding Gear is required to participate in any TSBA group ride. This means a full-faced helmet, leather jacket (or ballistic style nylon), jeans, riding gloves and boots that cover the ankles. One or two-piece leathers are highly recommended. Remember, road rash is no fun. A valid DPS motorcycle endorsement on your license and a minimum of liability insurance are also required.

1. Bike Control - is most important thing on any TSBA group ride. Ride within the limits of your bike, and yourself. Too much speed and late breaking cause the MAJORITY of riding accidents. If you need to slow down, DO IT. The group will adjust its pace to accommodate (more on this later). If you crash, the ride is over for ALL of us.

2. Constant WFO throttle and Late Braking - are for racing. We are street riders. Thereís no checkered flag anywhere. Cornering momentum is the name of the game, and the real fun in the twisties. Throttle control, progressive braking and most of all: Think Smooooth.

3. The Lane is Your Limit - and crossing over the line is a sign you are breaking Golden Rule #1. This will not tolerated. Passing is allowed ONLY in a safe manner, and never in a corner. No "strafing" (passing at high closure rates and very close to) other riders. If seen, you will be warned. Repeatedly going wide into turns or executing dangerous passing and you will be asked not to ride with the club. A death, or serious injury on an SMR would just plain suck. So re-read Rule #2.

4. A Pace We all can Follow - is the sign of a good Ride Leader. Keeping the person in your mirrors in sight is required. If a rider drops back out of sight, you should slow slightly on the straights to allow him to stay in your mirrors. A good following distance is about 3 car lengths or more. If the Pace is too fast, the Leader will be asked to slow. A Ride Sweeper will pull up the rear and ensure that all riders are still with the group.

5. Good Communication - in a group ride is essential. A foot off the peg indicates debris in the road. A tap on the helmet says the Police are ahead, and to slow.

6. Above all, Have a good Attitude - The people you are riding with are your friends. Their safety and enjoyment of a TSBA group ride are in your hands. Donít let them down.

--------- end

Wel, that's what I propose. If there's no objections, I'll have Bill post it to the site. I'll also print up a few hundred for handouts at meetings and SMR's.

[ December 12, 2001: Message edited by: CBRian Whalen ]

[ December 12, 2001: Message edited by: CBRian Whalen ]

odinb
December 12th, 2001, 11:16 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by CBRian Whalen:

snip...

Requirements: Riding Gear is required to participate in any TSBA group ride. This means helmet, leather jacket (or ballistic style nylon), riding gloves and boots. One or two-piece leathers are highly recommended. Remember, road rash is no fun.
..snip
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The helmet should be a full-face, or?
Boots has to cover the ankles! We don't want any sneakers.
What about pants? Is jeans the least that is accepted? If so, it should be stated.

Do we need to add anything about riding in formation, or is that too basic? I'm thinking of when we do 75 or similar up into the area of the twisties, and returning.

Otherwise I like the writeup! Think you got the essence in there.


//Odin

RideRed
December 12th, 2001, 11:24 AM
Odin,

All good suggestions. I'll modify the guidelines to add these in.

Thanks for your input.
Brian

DaJacker
December 12th, 2001, 12:14 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by CBRian Whalen:
Requirements: Riding Gear is required to participate in any TSBA group ride. This means a full-faced helmet, leather jacket (or ballistic style nylon), jeans, riding gloves and boots that cover the ankles. One or two-piece leathers are highly recommended. Remember, road rash is no fun.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I think we need to add to the requirments that you have the motorcycle endorsment on your licences issued by the state, it is a law that you have this before you can ride. heck you can "BUY" all this gear and still be a tardo, the state endorsment you have to complete some kind of written and practical test, I think we should follow suit.

P.S. should we also make a statment about haveing valid insurance? not that we are going to check, but this might scare off the weeds that dont

[ December 12, 2001: Message edited by: martys748 ]

yellowducati900ss
December 12th, 2001, 12:20 PM
Great set of rules. I think we need to add something that specifically says something like:

You are responsible for your own riding and any consequences that are a result of your riding.


Basically we need to push personal responsibility.

Geek
December 12th, 2001, 12:23 PM
Motorcycle endorsement AND proof of insurance?

It never ceases to amaze me how many guys I ride with don't have one or the other of these...

I'm not complaining actually as I usually find out when we get pulled over and the cop gives them tickets for the improper papers - and I get off scott free because of it smile.gif . Happened 3 times this year.

DaJacker
December 12th, 2001, 12:40 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Geek:
Motorcycle endorsement AND proof of insurance?

It never ceases to amaze me how many guys I ride with don't have one or the other of these...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

My point exactly! Id hate to find out the hard way that this person that just rear-ended me has no insurance, If you not responcable enough to at least have financhial coverage, then how responcable are you? We are preaching "personal responcability, you are responcable for your own actions" this to includes your financhial obligation in the event of an accident, if you cant afford insurance you sure as hell cant afford to replace my bike when you hit me.

[ December 12, 2001: Message edited by: martys748 ]

Geek
December 12th, 2001, 12:54 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by martys748:


ou are responcable for your own actions" this to includes your financhial obligation in the event of an accident, if you cant afford insurance you sure as hell cant afford to replace my bike when you hit me.

[ December 12, 2001: Message edited by: martys748 ]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Especially considering Marty's is one of those $40,000 italian exotic race bikes ;)

Holy Heck Marty.. you been hanging out with Shane lately? Take some of that carbon fibre money and buy a spell checker :D :D :D

Geek! - pot calling the kettle black.

[ December 12, 2001: Message edited by: Geek ]

DaJacker
December 12th, 2001, 01:06 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Geek:
Take some of that carbon fibre money and buy a spell checker<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
"Fibre" ? is that like a fabric softener?
Did I ever tell you about the time I won the Mayberry spelling Bee? ThAtS cAuSe I dIdNt!!


:D :D :D :D :D :D

[ December 12, 2001: Message edited by: martys748 ]

RideRed
December 12th, 2001, 01:19 PM
I agree that we as a CLUB can require these things in order to qaulify for participation in our events (SMR's). Insurance (State liability minimums) also makes sense, but I will not be "carding folks" at the Einsteins either.

Like Mike just said (and my personal mantra): Personal responsibility for your self and your actions.

I'll add that in there under Requirements for the ride.

Nice going guys. Good suggestions!

Brian

F1
December 12th, 2001, 01:28 PM
How bout a minimum engine displacement requirement. 250's cant keep up with the group, if they try they bend out of shape.

Faisal ZX-6R

RideRed
December 12th, 2001, 01:30 PM
OK Members and Regular Attenders,

Now that a new SMR Ride Guide (if ratified) requires a MC endorsement on your license, and a minimum of liability insurance for each rider, who needs to go run to the DPS office, or your local insurance agent? smile.gif

I'll wait here while you take care of that...... :rolleyes:

Brian

odinb
December 12th, 2001, 01:47 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Faisal:
How bout a minimum engine displacement requirement. 250's cant keep up with the group, if they try they bend out of shape.

Faisal ZX-6R<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

500 cc's seems reasonable as minimum, or?

Geek
December 12th, 2001, 02:03 PM
All the Ducati's chime in together:

Minimum displacement is whatever Faisil is riding + 1 cc

:D

RideRed
December 12th, 2001, 02:11 PM
I don't know about oulawing anything under 500cc. Rick Aruffo (sp?) and Ken Johnson had CB-1's (a screamingly fast 400 with a 13.5K redline that would have been fun on all by the faster highway sections of any SMR. 400 Bandit's would be able to stay with a SMR too, IMHO. Are these 400's underpowered? Hmm... ya in some cases (passing cars above 65mph). I'd say yes, the 400 minimum makes sense in today's sport bike market. If it's got less than 400cc's, it's really not in the caliber of bikes we ride.

I would vote for something having to be 400cc or over. Sound good?

[ December 12, 2001: Message edited by: CBRian Whalen ]

Jeff Roberts
December 12th, 2001, 02:12 PM
To confirm, is it safe to say that all the input from the big weekend SMR thread and last night’s meeting were cussed and discussed and the final deliverable was the above changes? In essence attempting to educate new people more thoroughly up front? There were some very bold ideas put forth in that thread on how to control new people for SMR’s and I’d like to know where this stands if someone wouldn’t mind putting a period on it.

thx,

jr

RideRed
December 12th, 2001, 02:20 PM
You got it Jeff. We're going to make the Ride Guide public on the site, and distribute it at all the SMR's to new members or guest, and I'm going to make it a point to "flight check" new folks when I meet them at Einsteins, get a quick overview of their attitude and ability, and as Mike stated is already done, match them up to a Ride Mentor.

We're doing all this to try and keep the enjoyment in SMR riding to a maximum, and the liability to a minimum.

At this point, we as a club of smart, educated riders have done all we can to make sure we're all on the same page. The Pace page. If someone wrecks, as it always can happen, if should be with much less frequency, and the rides should be more fun!

Geek
December 12th, 2001, 03:30 PM
CC's have nothing to do with it. It's the rider.

IMHO, limiting CC's is not relevant. Do you think I could keep up on Cody's NSR250 ??

We've had as many problems with squids on liter bikes as with little CC'd bikes.

my 0.02 (that's about .0001345 canadian)
Geek

Inlaw1
December 12th, 2001, 05:17 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by CBRian Whalen:
We're going to make the Ride Guide public on the site, and distribute it at all the SMR's to new members or guest<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Are you guys aware that there is already a set of published ride guidlines that TSBA has had for years on the web site? It covers everything you have already discussed, clothing requirements (including ankle covering boots), passing in corners, riding your own ride, ride the Pace, etc. etc. Please go read them along with the Pace, and Pace Yourself articles. There is also a listing of clothing requirements that TSBA has required of it's riders.

What with the bad luck you guys have had on your SMR's as of late, I can understand the need to get a handle on things there. However as an officer interested in keeping this club under one roof and going in one direction together, so to speak, I'd hate to see each chapter end up with ability to set it's own rules. The Killeen bunch will have rocket pods on their bikes, and Austin and SA will allow outside blind corner passing on 337. :D Modification of what we already have to some extent may be what you need, but everything your talking about we basically already have.

Including the insurance thing. We have always asked new riders if they have MC endorsements and insurance. We check bikes out for tire wear and chain maintenance etc. to get an idea of what kind of rider the person is and experience level. If someone shows up with a dry surface rusted chain it's a pretty good clue as to their level of experience or commitment to riding.

Inlaw1...outspoken as always. smile.gif

F1
December 12th, 2001, 05:17 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Geek:
All the Ducati's chime in together:

Minimum displacement is whatever Faisil is riding + 1 cc

:D<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hehe, I ride a piece of art that won 2 world championships (not P'sOS).

Faisal ZX-6R :D :D

[ December 12, 2001: Message edited by: Faisal ]

Jerry Sherrill
December 12th, 2001, 06:41 PM
I am a Killen member, and this is what I fly for a living, maybe you guys could use some route security on your next ride....I also do birthday partys, reunions and Barmitzvahs....ok just kidding about the barmitzvahs........ :D http://members.aol.com/gunstogo64/longbow.jpg

F1
December 12th, 2001, 07:27 PM
Cool Jerry, bring the copter on our next ride, that way you could spot the smokies!

Faisal ZX-6R

DaJacker
December 12th, 2001, 08:12 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Faisal:
Cool Jerry, bring the copter on our next ride, that way you could spot the smokies!

Faisal ZX-6R<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Smokies? you got a CB mounted on the Ninja, "good buddy"

bvia
December 12th, 2001, 08:50 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Faisal:


Hehe, I ride a piece of art that won 2 world championships (not P'sOS).

Faisal ZX-6R :D :D

[ December 12, 2001: Message edited by: Faisal ]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Jeff Koons once made a life sized porcelin sculpture of Michael Jackson and Bubbles and called it a piece of art. Duchamp used a urinal. Mapplethorpe took pics of overtly gay men dressed in leather...either way I agree. You've certainly got yourself a piece of art there, Faisal...;)&gt;
bill

bvia
December 12th, 2001, 08:51 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jerry:
I am a Killen member, and this is what I fly for a living, maybe you guys could use some route security on your next ride....I also do birthday partys, reunions and Barmitzvahs....ok just kidding about the barmitzvahs........ :D http://members.aol.com/gunstogo64/longbow.jpg <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Wonder if one of them "disco balls" would mount on a bike...hmmm
bill

F1
December 12th, 2001, 10:22 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by bill via:


Mapplethorpe took pics of overtly gay men dressed in leather...
bill<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Bill, No wonder your neighbors chunk empty beer cans at ya
:eek:

Faisal ZX-6R :D

bvia
December 13th, 2001, 07:51 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Faisal:



Bill, No wonder your neighbors chunk empty beer cans at ya
:eek:

Faisal ZX-6R :D<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

;)&gt;

Brett
December 13th, 2001, 02:14 PM
Clothing requirements - I don't think requiring a jacket is necessarily a good idea. I think the clothing requirement should match the MSF course requirements. Just have long sleeves. Jess Johnson, Austin VP Extrodinaire rode the first two years with TSBA in a long sleeve t-shirt. I would hate to have thown him out back then smile.gif Gary Stoops started out in a wind braker sytle jacket, would have also have thrown out? (OK, don't answer that).

Many riders show up who've just gotten their bike. They have spent every dime they have on the bike, a cheap HJC helmet and possibly some gloves. Peer pressure will get them suited up eventually.

Also, scrap the CC requirement on bikes. Let's be real, there are lots of members on 250s, 125s and maybe even some YSRs who could smoke some of the other members on liter bikes. It's all about ability.

Finally (and I really hate to do this) I have to agree with Gary. Check out the all inclusive web site (not just the DFW site). We have ride guidelines already there as well as clothing requirements. Don't take me wrong, it's good you guys are thinking about this stuff, but it's already been thought about before, check out the base you've already got before trying to build on it.

jelliott25
December 13th, 2001, 02:32 PM
YSR's?!?! Holy Crap...I'm all set then! :rolleyes:

bvia
December 13th, 2001, 02:35 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Brett:
Finally (and I really hate to do this) I have to agree with Gary. Check out the all inclusive web site (not just the DFW site). We have ride guidelines already there as well as clothing requirements.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You were doing so good right up to that point...Since I created them both, the text you are referencing is exactly the same on both sites (copy, meet paste)...so ppttffpphhh ;)&gt;
bill

yellowducati900ss
December 13th, 2001, 02:55 PM
Brett, I have to respectfully disagree with some of your suggested Requirements and go with some of what Brian had.

First of all, as far as the "Requirements" go, I'm not at all opposed to bending them for someone who we know can ride.

If Breeno shows up with a YSR-250, we know he can ride with the group. However, when Joe Shmoe comes off the street on a 250, he is an unknown quantity. He is going to be dangerous because his bike can't keep up and he will FEEL he needs to push it no matter how much we tell him he shouldn't. He already has small-penis-syndrome because he has a smaller bike and he wants to prove his bike is as capable as others. It is human nature.

Second, I think a jacket should be required on SMR's. I understand that some really good people may have been turned away (I rode with a crappy denim jacket the first couple SMR's myself), but it is a matter of safety and group riding courtesy. If someone falls at 20+ mph with a jacket on they are much more likely to walk away with nothing but a bruised ego if they have a jacket on. If they have a long sleeve shirt on, we might be dressing major road rash on the street.

The reason MSF course classes only require long sleaves is because course speed limit is 25 mph.

[ December 13, 2001: Message edited by: yellowducati900ss ]

DaJacker
December 13th, 2001, 03:19 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by yellowducati900ss:
If someone falls at 20+ mph with a jacket on they are much more likely to walk away with nothing but a bruised ego if they have a jacket on]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

quit talking about me MIKE!

Jeff Roberts
December 13th, 2001, 04:17 PM
Crash Test Dummy Report:

Chick hangs left in front of VFR doing 40-45 in heavy traffic, I grab gobbs of brake and lock the front tire. I’m not sure how fast I was going when I hit the pavement (and then her). I had a T-shirt and a kinda heavyweight long sleeve shirt on, jeans, hiking boots, and my crash jacket was bungee’d to the back seat (Duh!) because it was too hot.

The shirt had (honestly) minor scuffs but my forearm was missing a bunch of skin from my elbow forward. My T-shirt looked like wild dogs had attacked it and I had what developed into a nasty burn on my shoulder, again the external long sleeve shirt looked really good but underneath was pretty F’d up. I do not understand the dynamics of how the undershirt was so shredded and the outershirt was not. I do know that it got hot from friction or I wouldn’t have been burned.

I no longer ride without a crash jacket - ever. For summer I bought one of the Joe Rocket perforated jackets, regardless of its questionable protection capabilities I’ve reasoned that it’s better than a shirt and anything above the shirt level should be better.

jr

Brett
December 14th, 2001, 03:23 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by yellowducati900ss:
However, when Joe Shmoe comes off the street on a 250, he is an unknown quantity. He is going to be dangerous because his bike can't keep up and he will FEEL he needs to push it no matter how much we tell him he shouldn't. He already has small-penis-syndrome because he has a smaller bike and he wants to prove his bike is as capable as others. It is human nature.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I guess my real problem is that you are making assumptions based on a person CC rating on their bike. You are saying that someone who shows up new on a Ninja 250 is gonna have to push to keep up, so you'd rather not have them there unless they've proven they can ride well and either keep up or maintain a comfortable pace for themselves. Why is CC's the deciding factor here? What's to say someone new who shows up on an R1 won't be pushing to keep up with the group as much if not more so than someone on a 250? It all comes down to ability.

If the person (no matter what size bike they ride) truly can't keep up, they won't come back. If they are riding all by themselves then what is the point of trying to ride with a group? I just don't think saying someone can't ride with us because of bike size/style whatever is a bad idea. Those that truly don't fit into the group will weed themselves out.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by yellowducati900ss:
Second, I think a jacket should be required on SMR's. I understand that some really good people may have been turned away (I rode with a crappy denim jacket the first couple SMR's myself), but it is a matter of safety and group riding courtesy. If someone falls at 20+ mph with a jacket on they are much more likely to walk away with nothing but a bruised ego if they have a jacket on. If they have a long sleeve shirt on, we might be dressing major road rash on the street.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree 100% that the more gear you have the better your chances in a wreck. Why stop at a jacket then? I was on a ride where a guy wearing an awesome jacket was airlifted out because his leg was only attached to his body by skin, his bone was all over the ditch. Perhaps we should require full leathers with body armor...

Part of what TSBA is about is getting NEW riders into the sport in a semi-safe fashion. (I say semi-safe since well all know enough not to call this sport safe.) People who just bought their bike and are now looking for someone to ride with are part of the people whom we should be looking at for new members. Hopefully we can show them that it's better to have a jacket than just a long sleeve shirt. Hopefully we can show them that it's more fun to corner in the Hill Country than wheelie through downtown traffic. What we shouldn't be telling them is they are $250 shy of being able to aford to be in TSBA right now. Call us when you have the proper cuff-links...

Part of being in the TSBA is giving as well as taking. I've "given" up lots of my Sunday rides to sit at the back of the pack and babysit new riders. I've also given up Sunday rides standing on the side of the road waiting for the crash truck to come pick up someone who went down. That's all part of being TSBA. I agree that after you've been in the TSBA for a while you should have the courtesy to wear gear appropriate for the pace you ride, but I don't think we should keep people out just because they don't have that gear to start with.

If you stress the pace at the beginning of the ride, assure the new riders that the group waits for them at all the turn offs, you *shouldn't* have problems caused by someone being on too small a bike or because they don't have a jacket.

Not only that, but if you turn them away for either reason TSBA is going to get more of an elitest reputation and make it even harder to recruit riders who are new to the sport.

RideRed
December 14th, 2001, 04:03 PM
Brett,

I understand what you are trying to prevent: The TSBA from having monetary requirements to join the club. "If you can't afford a $250 leather jacket, you can't ride with us..." mentallity. I agree, but you're missing the point we're aming for with gear requirements. Safe riding is a cornerstone of the TSBA, and promoting proper riding gear goes along with promoting proper riding technique like The PACE.

"Proper" on the TSBA web site means to me: "Jacket, boots, gloves, pants and helmet than you won't mind stepping out the back of a speeding pickup truck with"... you get the idea. SMR's are not for learners on new 250's, or for 40mph touring while you enjoy the bluebonnets. Would I tell someone to go home if they show up for an SMR in a long-sleeve T-shirt , helmet, jeans and sneakers?

Yes, I would. "Go home and get a jacket, and boots, and hurry back. We'll be here 'till 9:15am.

It reiterate that on our TSBA web page "Riders are encouraged to own and use the proper safety gear." Why aren't we enforcing this when we meet to ride? Hurt feelings? Alienation? Elitism? I don't care if we seem elitist, that's fine. If we're more concerned with the safety of someone than they are with themselves, then THEY have the problem, not us.

This is the situation we're facing. We're too relaxed on this matter of safety gear, riding inside your limits, and those of your bike, etc.. People have been getting hurt in record #'s this year, so we've decided as a group to take our "charter" more seriously. I think this is a changing wind in the DFW Chapter. We want to make an effort to be safer, promote personal responsibility and still have fun. That starts somewhere.

So it's starting with me. I'm making an effort to "practice what I preach". All required gear on each ride, and riding The Pace. No exceptions. I hope I set an example for new riders and new members will follow.

As for a person's ability be the deciding factor in participating on an SMR when riding a 250, I agree in part. I would still say that someone like me with 14 years riding experience, and numerous track days, would be hard pressed to keep up with an SMR pace on a bike with 32 hp. It's physics, not ability. At 75~85mph, a 250 Ninja is about topped out, and has little left for passing cars. I think that 250's are best left home for SMR's.

That's just my 2 cents, but I'll keep an open mind each Sunday. I'll talk to riders personally who show up on them (unless they're Pod or Cody with NSR 250's). Then I want to be BEHIND them to see those little things in action!

Brian

[ December 14, 2001: Message edited by: CBRian Whalen ]

F1
December 14th, 2001, 04:50 PM
Aww bummer, I soo much wanted to ride tomorrow in my nu T and flip flops :(

Faisal ZX-6R

bvia
December 14th, 2001, 07:44 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by CBRian Whalen:
I'll talk to riders personally who show up on them (unless they're Pod or Cody with NSR 250's). Then I want to be BEHIND them to see those little things in action!

Brian

[ December 14, 2001: Message edited by: CBRian Whalen ]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Three things you never want to be behind on a SMR...

1. A two-stroke (it's really not a nice place to be, i.e. Valdez)

2. A thumper (what?...What...WHAT?)

3. Faisal...'nuff said

bill!

Dave Whitson
December 14th, 2001, 11:52 PM
The problem isn't guys not having enough gear on. Most guys, even the newbies, usually show up appropriatly dressed from what I've seen. Sometimes you get a guy in tennis shoes you need to send home.

The problem too me appears to be peer pressure more than anything else.

Since we all pretty much know each other and how we ride and interact together as a group, we can haul *** around pretty good with no problems. (Yo Adrien smile.gif )but you throw in a guy who's on his first SMR, maybe even his first group ride ever. He's never been on those roads. After a few turns, he doesn't even know where he is anymore. He's nervous, and everybody's goin a hundred miles an hour all the time.

We tell him "Ride your own ride".... "Don't worry, we'll wait at the turns" but no matter what, when you come pullin up to the stop and everyone is twisted around staring at you and looks like they've been waiting there for 10 min. And then takes off and in 2 turns there GONE again. Except for the sweeper, who for some strange reason you find you can't stop looking at in your mirror, and everytime, he's right there behind you. You can't help but feel your holding up the group. What happens is that they start going WOT in the straights trying to catch up, and end up too hot into the turn, panic, brake, CRASH.

We need to find some way of getting through to these guys that they can ride at a comfortable pace and it's OK.
How do we do that? :confused:

[ December 15, 2001: Message edited by: FZR Dave ]

ZRX_Doug
December 15th, 2001, 07:22 AM
Hi All,

I think that talking this out has begun to raise awareness, talk about it, think about it. This really will help when you practice what you preach. In my business self critique and feedback are crucial to performning your job correctly and safely. A good positive critique of someone"s performance on the spot goes a long way towards correcting a behaviour before it gets out of hand.

Brian is doing it right, to fix a thing it must start with the leaders. When they buy into it and demonstrate that, we also do since we trust them and respect them (insert comments here).

So really, this is a good group of people who want to safely enjoy a sport that fights you at every turn. Keep up the concern, it'll give results.

Also if everyone had rear braided lines, I'm sure it would be a better place for all of us.....but I digress.

Inlaw1
December 16th, 2001, 11:48 AM
Again, speaking from many years experience with this group:

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by FZR Dave:
He's nervous, and everybody's going a hundred miles an hour all the time.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>You guys really should not be going triple digits all day long. I hope that's not what you have been doing. A cruise speed of 75-85 should be just fine, wick it up in the corners (keeping in mind any newbies on the ride) and then back off in the straights. Riding 100mph all day dulls the sense of speed for most anyone and can lead to problems later in the day when riding fatigue starts to set in. Of course if you are out with something like 3-5 of your most experienced riders / racers of greater skill level then things can be different. But an average SMR pace should not include cruising at triple digits, it's inherently unsafe in the long run.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by FZR Dave:
We tell him "Ride your own ride".... "Don't worry, we'll wait at the turns" but no matter what, when you come pullin up to the stop and everyone is twisted around staring at you and looks like they've been waiting there for 10 min. And then takes off and in 2 turns there GONE again. Except for the sweeper, who for some strange reason you find you can't stop looking at in your mirror, and everytime, he's right there behind you. You can't help but feel your holding up the group. What happens is that they start going WOT in the straights trying to catch up, and end up too hot into the turn, panic, brake, CRASH.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>WOW! All very good points Dave. Your right on the money with this one. And it can be a hard thing to deal with. You just have to keep reiterating to the new rider it is not a problem for the rest of the group if they have to wait. Tell them that when you started riding with the group it was the same for you (even if it wasn't). Tell them once they get more skill and learn the roads it will slowly change for them, as it did for you.

You cannot reiterate enough to new riders that are at the back of the pack that being back there not a problem for the group. Ask if they are having fun, and tell them that's all your concerned about. That they have fun and are safe. They should not feel like they are holding up the group as you don't feel that way about them. Give them the thumbs up when they show up. Because your right Dave, I can't count how many times I've heard from a new rider they feel bad about holding the group up. If they continue to feel that way they either are not going to show again, or they will get in over their head. It's up to everyone to help these folks feel comfortable with the group. If they do, they will be able to deal much better with that nagging feeling of holding up the group.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by FZR Dave:
We need to find some way of getting through to these guys that they can ride at a comfortable pace and it's OK.
How do we do that?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>You do that by communication. You explain to new riders that may be at the back of the pack they may experience the feeling of guilt over holding the group up, and then do your best to take that feeling away. And it's not just the ride leader or sweepers job to do this, it's everyone's. You point out that you know the roads, that you have a wide range of skills in your group and if the guy who just joined you is a new rider he certainly is not expected to keep up with some members that either ride the SMR roads all the time or even race and who's skills are greater than the new guys. You could point out riders that had the same lack of skills when they came to you, but are now riding at the front of the pack. And explain it did not happen overnight.

Also something TSBA used to do at every meeting, back when we had a couple of MSF instructors in the Houston leadership, was talk a little about safe riding at every meeting. Some aspect of how to handle a given situation (Do most of you know that riding left of center of the lane your in is where you should be so that oncoming traffic that may be wanting to turn left across your bow will see you a lot quicker than if your buried behind a car in the right of center of lane....standard MSF doctrine). How to keep your bike safe by proper maintenance. Talking about complacency and how that can effect safe riding. Even if it was repeated stuff about riding your ride and the Pace. It cannot be emphasized enough! Todd Hoffmaster, the Pres. of the SA group, is getting our group back to doing this even though our safety record is pretty **** good this year. Safety cannot be emphasized enough.

And you don't set a pace on rides that is triple digits. It may not sound like much, but in my years of riding with this group I have seen a big difference when the cruise pace drops from 100 to 80. There's always one stretch that you can turn it up for a bit, there is a time and place....

I personally am very heartened by the discussion and concern you guys are showing with this problem. I feel very good that things are going to change for the positive for you guys very soon.

[ December 16, 2001: Message edited by: Gary Stoops ]

Chet
December 16th, 2001, 03:04 PM
Rule #4. 3 car lengths? :eek: I don't think so, how about 100 yards? smile.gif

Todd Hoffmaster
December 22nd, 2001, 10:08 AM
I don't see where cc's has anything to do with SMR's. Since we do not break any traffic laws there should be no reason as to why a 250 couldn't keep up with a 1000.

I can see where a rider's experience might be the way to deter people from riding with you. Beginner's can fall into the "riding over your head" syndrome, especially when they feel intimidated to keep up with the group and the razzing that goes on when they are not riding a particular brand, size, type of bike that the group is riding. (If your not ridng an R bike - you aren't sh@%)
If the 250 is falling behind the sweeper, then the sweeper is not doing his/her job. Maybe you need 2 groups fast & not as fast.

Dave Whitson
December 22nd, 2001, 08:58 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Todd H.:
I don't see where cc's has anything to do with SMR's. Since we do not break any traffic laws there should be no reason as to why a 250 couldn't keep up with a 1000.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Who said we weren't breaking any traffic laws. We break em all....Twice on Sundays smile.gif smile.gif


Sorry, I just got back from a 4 drink dinner....WoooHooo!! :D :D

Weave
December 23rd, 2001, 08:44 AM
Each chapter of the TSBA can and should establish its own criteria for who rides and who stays home. Let's think about it: Yamaha, Honda, et al, will sell its most powerful bike to anyone with good credit. No experience criteria required. Hell, you don't even need a motorcycle driver's license. That's ludicrous. Of course, the same individual could purchase a used sportbike and avoid the dealerships altogether, but the end result remains the same. Many, many people are out there, riding bikes and over-estimating their own skill level.

Should the TSBA allow any rider to participate in the SMR? No, they should not. However, we're leaning towards a policy that only requires a bike, proper gear, and a positive mental attitude. There should be a higher standard. If such a standard were in place this year, the DFW chapter would have reduced its accident rate by 70% or more.

The SMRs should not be a place where beginners learn to ride. Heck, a track day would provide a better learning environment (controlled environment, no cars, everybody's going the same direction, etc.) If someone walks up to us on Sunday and admits a lack of experience, then we need to make a judgement call, and send the lad home. No hard feelings, but our own personal experience has indicated that you're going to end up in a ditch, so we're doing you a favor.

Some of you may disagree with this policy, and condone a more open policy towards new riders. And we should actively recruit new members to our organization. But that's the role of the TSBA, not the SMRs. The SMRs should qualify its participants to create a safer and more fun environment. Sometimes you gotta say "no, this ride's not for you".

jelliott25
December 23rd, 2001, 09:50 AM
Seems like it would be easy enough to just make SMR's for members only and then, by invitation only.

Put the impetus(sp?) on the new rider to show up for non-smr events and attend the slower more leisurely rides that the club goes on (you guys do those, right?). Basically to show the membership that he has the right attitude and minimum skill level to be invited on an SMR.

I can't imagine any mature adult having a problem with a policy like that. It's your club you can do what you want. Elitest or not. Hell, My check is in the mail (as soon as the mailing address appears on the home page again) but I guarantee you I won't be showing my face at an SMR for a long time to come.

[ December 23, 2001: Message edited by: Elliott P. ]

Inlaw1
December 23rd, 2001, 08:00 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Weave:
Each chapter of the TSBA can and should establish its own criteria for who rides and who stays home.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>My concern, being in leadership, is that all the chapter's run under the same ride guidelines / clothing requirements etc. As for whom you determine rides with you and not, that should be up to ya'll.

I'm not sure you need criteria to establish who can / cannot ride with you. You just need people with enough experience to come out on the SMR's with regularity that can recognize behavior in riders that leads to trouble, and know what to do about it, and will do it. And it takes the whole group to make new riders understand they don't have to keep up, that they aren't creating a problem for anyone if you have to wait.

I was a fairly new rider when I started with TSBA. There are several in the group that were back of the pack riders when they started riding with TSBA that are now in leadership positions throughout TSBA and / or race. If we weren't to allow new riders on SMR's, then I probably would not now be welcomed. And how am I to learn proper street riding? The track is a great way to get confidence, but I've also seen too much confidence gained at the track lead to tragic results on the street.

In SA we recently had a new rider come join us. He was on a brand new R6 with paper plates. "I just got the bike 5 days ago" he says. So naturally I ask "How much riding experience have you had all your life?" "5 days" he tells me. I got this sick feeling in the pit of my stomach as I looked around at the group of experienced Inlaws gathered in the parking lot, smirks on their faces. "He, he, he....new meat!"

So we paid very close attention to the guy for several rides. Still check up on him. But the guy showed us quickly he is not dumb by any means. He has raced SCCA for a while. And while the car and bike handling will not translate to one another, he knows enough to know when he's over his head. He's doing great and improving immensely! If we had the 'no new riders on SMR's' rule he would of been denied the use of what TSBA has to offer, and is supposed to be about.

I think it's more important to gauge on an individual basis. And for that you need people that are very experienced riders to participate in SMR's regularly.

One other thing I just found out you guys in DFW have been doing, advertising in the newspaper. Great marketing tool for the club, but a mistake IMHO. The last time TSBA did that was in Houston just a few years after it started. They got a ton of response. Membership increased ten fold, the rides were larger and started getting out of hand. The problem was it grew to a point that you could not keep up with whom was coming to you and the riding experience they had. And the club suffered it's first fatality.

Here in SA we recently discussed setting up a PayPal account for payment of dues, like you guys had at one time. We decided against it. We want to meet the people whom want to join us, before they join us. Hell, we discourage folks from joining until they have been on a ride or two and to a meeting. We tell them they can check us out and see if we fit their bill. In reality, we are checking them out to see if they need to be discouraged (we're worried about the squid or the guy that thinks stunt riding is how you ride a sport bike more than we are new riders).

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Weave:
But that's the role of the TSBA, not the SMRs. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>The role of the TSBA is to provide an environment for safe enjoyable sport riding. We are not there to teach, but we can advise those that want to listen. But we are a riding club, so I'm not sure you can say it's not the role of the TSBA. The main reason for TSBA is to provide a group for people whom like to ride. "Ride to eat, eat to ride" was the motto at one time. smile.gif

I saw a suggestion made to have at least one new rider SMR a month. Sounds like maybe that's what you could use.

Just my unsolicited (as usual) opinion / advice. :D

Dave Whitson
December 24th, 2001, 01:42 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>One other thing I just found out you guys in DFW have been doing, advertising in the newspaper. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


That's something I was not aware of. Is this true?
Are we advertising the club and SMR's in the paper? If we are, I think we should stop.


<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> And it takes the whole group to make new riders understand they don't have to keep up, that they aren't creating a problem for anyone if you have to wait.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's a very good point. Often times it seems that when a new guy shows up, one or two guys are given the responsibility to watch out for this guy, and for everybody else it's simply business as usual.

bvia
December 24th, 2001, 03:15 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by FZR Dave:
[QB]That's something I was not aware of. Is this true?
Are we advertising the club and SMR's in the paper? If we are, I think we should stop.
QB]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

To the best of my knowledge, we no longer advertise the D/FW TSBA in the DMN...I don't think we EVER advertised the SMR times or locations other than on the website, old e-mail list and BBS...
bill

Weave
December 25th, 2001, 10:05 PM
I gotta admit, this thread is getting a bit tiresome. When the DFW TSBA had a rash of accidents, the rest of the state responds with "you guys need to fix that problem". So we devise some potential solutions, and are met with "no, that's not right".

We all know that the vast majority of accidents in DFW occured with first-time SMR riders. Hell, some of these guys never made it through the first series of curves! We rarely had the opportunity to monitor a rider's progress, for it often ended before it even began! (Remember the ZX-12 guy who hit the curb on his way to Einstein's?) It was **** near comical. Nobody steered these folks off the road; they just ended up there! We want new members, but Darwinism keeps getting in the way.

Anyway, everyone's opinion is appreciated and should be considered in the final solution. We're trying (and succeeding) in reducing the accident rate. A monthly "new rider" SMR sounds like a solid idea. Hopefully we can diagnose a potential squid before he hits the pavement. I just grow a bit weary of throttle jockeys on the latest Japanese technology showing up Sunday morning ready to ride, without the slightest idea of how to turn a motorcycle. Maybe we should require a slow-speed parking lot test prior to the ride.

shane carter
December 25th, 2001, 10:31 PM
Just because you don't have an MC endorsment doesn't mean you suck riding a bike. No mind to my post name. hehehe. I just havent been able to convince the DPS that the CMRA and RPM racing licenses are an acredited course. :) Ok.. I'm lazy.