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Brian Montgomery
August 28th, 2002, 06:52 AM
Here are a few pics from a torn open Fram Oil Filter.
I was out riding this last weekend and noticed that at idle the oil pressure light was flickering on and off. This got me worried and I had decided to check into it. So I looked everywhere for blockage. And this is where I found it. The oil filter was plugged up due to the clutches. The clutch residue had built up enough to restrict the oil flow. Oil history: 1463 miles since last oil change. (I usually change the oil every 1K miles) I had been using OEM Suzuki filters and this has never happened. So what does this tell me? It tells me that the Suzuki filter is not filtering as well as the Fram. Otherwise, the Fram would not have plugged up. This could be a good thing if you change your oil a lot like I do, but a bad thing if you let the oil change go on like a car say every 3k miles or so because the filter will be plugged up starving the engine for oil. So you ask which filter is best? Well it is up to you and your oil changing habits I guess. As for me, I will be sticking with the Fram. I would rather change my oil more often than pull a motor apart. http://www.gixxer.com/uploads/1030523373.jpg
http://www.gixxer.com/uploads/1030524609.jpg
http://www.gixxer.com/uploads/1030524623.jpg
http://www.gixxer.com/uploads/1030524637.jpg
http://www.gixxer.com/uploads/1030524670.jpg
http://www.gixxer.com/uploads/1030524683.jpg

tankmonkey
August 28th, 2002, 07:43 AM
it's your choice...

cardboard construction in the fram filter:
http://www.twocreeks.net/toby/images/framopen.jpg

fram filter teardown (http://www.twocreeks.net/toby/fram.shtml)

or metal construction in the oem suzuki filter:
http://www.twocreeks.net/toby/images/suzukiopen.jpg

suzuki filter tear down (http://www.twocreeks.net/toby/suzuki.shtml)

I'm an oem suzuki man, myself. obviously, your mileage may vary.

personally, I think what should really be bugging you is why your fram filter's oil bypass mechanism wasn't functioning properly and allowing a plugged filter to starve the engine in the first place. :eek:

this site also has info about other filters used for motorcycles. (http://www.twocreeks.net/toby/oil_filters.shtml)

Brian Montgomery
August 28th, 2002, 08:39 AM
That is some good data that you sent there. And some excellent reviews of oil filters. It surely will be playing a role in my filter selection in the future. Thanks for the great link. Maybe the Fram isn’t that great after all. Maybe the clogging wasn’t the cause of the oil pressure switch tripping. I wish that there were some reviews on the K&N oil filters and the Scotts Stainless Steel oil filters.

tankmonkey
August 28th, 2002, 08:59 AM
I was flipping through the suzuki factory service manual for my rf the other day and noticed the filter change interval was specified at 24 months! :eek:

I assumed it was a typo and checked the owner's manual for the bike and sure enough: 24 months.

suzuki's pretty brave with that kind of interval (especially given the unitized engine/tranny configuration, to say nothing of the wet clutch) and they obviously have a lot of confidence in their filter, but just the same, I think I'll keep changing the filter with the oil every 1500 miles or so.

Louis Reinartz
August 28th, 2002, 01:39 PM
Great info!

The Big Spank Daddy
August 28th, 2002, 03:09 PM
Hey, if you got that much stuff in your oil then you got other problems. No way there should be that much trash in your oil.

I saw the thing about the filters a while back and think you should stick to the OEM filters when it comes to spin on type filters. My bike is 17 years old with 38K miles and I change my oil at 2K and no more than 3K. I have a cartridge type filter and it is always immaculate. Being a mechanic by trade and working for a manufacturer I see many engine failures and do a lot of failure analysis on them. If that is indeed clutch material you need to inspect your clutch. Any time there is that much contamination it is important that you find out where it came from.

In an engine, dirty oil is better than no oil. When the filter becomes plugged the oil will by-pass the filter and into the engine components. So the trash you see there is definitely floating around and through your precious vital parts.

blk O11k
August 28th, 2002, 03:52 PM
brian,
do a search on gixxer. someone had really bad results with the K&N filter. something about bearing failure.
albert

tripod
August 28th, 2002, 05:07 PM
I've used nothing but the OEM Suzuki filter since new on my 99 Gixxer750. Street riding, track days, racing... every time they have been drama free (*knocking on formica*). ;)

Craig McCully
August 28th, 2002, 05:34 PM
So why do people change their oil every 1000 miles? Seems like a waste of money to me. :confused:

tankmonkey
August 28th, 2002, 05:40 PM
Originally posted by Craig:
So why do people change their oil every 1000 miles? Seems like a waste of money to me. :confused: cheap insurance...

Craig McCully
August 28th, 2002, 05:53 PM
Originally posted by Scott M:
cheap insurance...[/QB]I'm sure the oil companies love you...

What about the air filter, should I change it every 1k too? The book says 8k but those engineers that design and test them can't know what they are talking about. They want my engine to self destruct. tongue.gif ;)

Pete
August 28th, 2002, 05:54 PM
Originally posted by Scott M:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Craig:
So why do people change their oil every 1000 miles? Seems like a waste of money to me. :confused: cheap insurance...</font>[/QUOTE]Every 1000 miles what are you crazy!! :eek: You should change it at least every week whether you ride it or not! Cheap insurance.

Seriously though......can I have your used oil?

tankmonkey
August 28th, 2002, 06:11 PM
Originally posted by Peter Strezo:
Seriously though......can I have your used oil?[/QB]lol! you can have it if you want, but I wouldn't recommend it. :D

fwiw, my rf9's tranny seems *much* happier with fresh oil (I use castrol gtx dino juice, btw). my old bandit 400 didn't seem to mind 3000-5000 change intervals, though.

and, considering the labor cost involved in splitting the cases, the $6 for the oil and $10 for the filter at each change seems pretty inexpensive to me. &lt;shrug&gt;

tankmonkey
August 28th, 2002, 06:14 PM
Originally posted by Craig:
What about the air filter, should I change it every 1k too? The book says 8k but those engineers that design and test them can't know what they are talking about. They want my engine to self destruct. tongue.gif ;) [/QB]dunno chief, I'm using a k&n panel filter. :cool:

as far as service intervals go, I think the 24 months ( :eek: ) recommended in my rf9 service manual for changing the oil filter is a wee bit optimistic.

as far as engineers go, if they were infalliable we wouldn't need a warranty on a new bike... tongue.gif

[ August 28, 2002, 07:15 PM: Message edited by: Scott M ]

Craig McCully
August 28th, 2002, 07:35 PM
Your dime, but oil has improved slightly in the last 20 years.

Pete
August 28th, 2002, 08:45 PM
Originally posted by Scott M:
[QUOTE]fwiw, my rf9's tranny seems *much* happier with fresh oil (I use castrol gtx dino juice, btw)Well oil related issues are one of those things that goes back and forth on just about every BBS (kinda like best brand of tires, best chain lube, best brake pads, etc.) and its hard to justify a clear cut best and worst. Heres my $0.02 though. smile.gif

Your tranny problems are probably due to the fact your using car oil which has a much different additive base than motorcycle specific oils. If you look in your manual I bet it recommends API SG however SH and SJ have since been introduced for the auto industry. With a regular motorcycle specific mineral oil you should be able to make 3000 miles easily and even more on a synthetic. I emailed a guy from Golden Spectro a while back on this subject and he said don't worry going 5K on there full sythetic oil. Personally I'm kinda fond of the syn blends (around $6/quart) and change around 3000-3500 which is somewhat consevative since my manual recommends 3500 or 6 month intervals. If there is a problem with this than Kawasaki can buy me a new motor under warranty, which of course they don't want to do and as a result they add a safety margin on there service recommendations. Theres no way I'm going to spend $35 a month to put oil/filer in this thing if I don't have to. Anyhow this subject tends to fall under personal preference but you might want to try and ditch the Castrol and see what happens. I would. :D

tankmonkey
August 28th, 2002, 08:55 PM
Originally posted by Craig:
Your dime, but oil has improved slightly in the last 20 years.:rolleyes:

tankmonkey
August 28th, 2002, 09:21 PM
Originally posted by Peter Strezo:
Your tranny problems are probably due to the fact your using car oil which has a much different additive base than motorcycle specific oils. If you look in your manual I bet it recommends API SG however SH and SJ have since been introduced for the auto industry. With a regular motorcycle specific mineral oil you should be able to make 3000 miles easily and even more on a synthetic. I emailed a guy from Golden Spectro a while back on this subject and he said don't worry going 5K on there full sythetic oil. Personally I'm kinda fond of the syn blends (around $6/quart) and change around 3000-3500 which is somewhat consevative since my manual recommends 3500 or 6 month intervals. If there is a problem with this than Kawasaki can buy me a new motor under warranty, which of course they don't want to do and as a result they add a safety margin on there service recommendations. Theres no way I'm going to spend $35 a month to put oil/filer in this thing if I don't have to. Anyhow this subject tends to fall under personal preference but you might want to try and ditch the Castrol and see what happens. I would. :D [/QB]thanks for the info, pete. I'll look into trying some moto specific oil and see how that works out...

Inlaw1
August 28th, 2002, 10:46 PM
Originally posted by Peter Strezo:
but you might want to try and ditch the Castrol and see what happens.Yea, I don't think that's his problem. I've run Castrol GTX in most of my bikes and I tend to rack up plenty of miles. No tranny problems. It has the proper S ratings. There's a guy in CA. with a '96 RR with 250,000 miles on it that has run nothing but Castrol GTX, changing every 3K or so, and he hasn't had any problems.

As long as you change your oil religiously around the 3K mark and run a decent oil like Castrol GTX then you shouldn't have a problem. I'm with Chris on this one, I think you may be having clutch problems and just don't know it yet.

And that 24 month interval? That's just wacko! Heck, I'll have 30K plus on my bike in 24 months!

sober1
August 29th, 2002, 06:32 PM
Engineers:
Speaking from a 'engineer in training' perspective, these people find out what the limiting factors of the bike are--that is, what will cause ultimate catastrophic bike failure. If the top failures cannot be prevented through frequent oil changes, they think, "Then why change the oil so often?"

Also, a lot of mechanics have told me that the bikes they see that have died, did not die due to infrequent oil changes.

I am still a 'every 2K' guy with Suzuki filters and KawaChem oil, mostly because my bike has 1 1/2 years left on my 4 year warranty with 28K on the bike. If my bike breaks, I do not want them to say it was my fault.

Anybody have problems with KawaChem Oil? I am willing to change if you all know of problems
with it.

Brian,
Thanks for the original post. It has got me thinking.

[ August 30, 2002, 10:58 PM: Message edited by: Scott Obermiller ]

The Big Spank Daddy
August 29th, 2002, 09:24 PM
Okay, here's the scoop on why you chande the oil so frequently on a motorcycle.

Engine oil and transmission oil have very different jobs to do. In an engine you want very slippery properties for the smooth plain bearings, cams, pistons and cylinder walls. It must also be able to withsatnd very high temps and neutralize the harmful chemicals (acid)that contaminate the oil from the blow-by gasses of combustion.

Transmission oil on the other hand cannot be "too" slippery or the clutch will slip. But on the other hand has to provide a protective film between the gear teath and gogs. The transmission gears literally shears apart the oil long strings of oil molecules rendering the oil almost useless.

Now combine the engine and transmission together in one component, such as a motorcycle, and you can see the problem the oil faces. It is being attacked chemically by the engine and ripped apart by the transmission. Hence the reason for synthetic oil. That's why you can typically run a synthetic longer than a conventional oil. However, conventional oil, Castrol GTX, works well as long as it is changed very often.

I used GTX on all my bikes for years and swore by it. But on my FJ I decided to try a synthetic because the trans was a bit notchy and the 1st and 2nd gear dogs are worn. I currently run Castrol full synthetic 20/50 for air cooled V-twins. It runs much cooler and the trans shifts glass smooth. I personally am sold on synthetics but would not condem anyone who uses conventional oil.

The key to any oil change on a motorcycle, regardless of the oil used, is the frequency in which you change the oil. The oil is also a carrier for all the contaminates and changing it is like giving your engine/trans a blood transfusion.

sober1
August 29th, 2002, 10:59 PM
I think you all probably already know this but it is safer said than not said. I didn't know until a year or so ago.

If you change from conventional oil to synthetic, you must make sure ALL of the conventional oil is out or it will gum up with the synthetic and block narrow oil passages. I do not know the best way to flush the old oil out but I am sure Chris would.

Chris,
Is it OK to change oils like that in the middle of an engine/gearbox's life?
How often do you change your bike's oil?

The Big Spank Daddy
August 30th, 2002, 06:39 AM
The stories being circulated about mixing conventional oil and synthetics are myths. The two oils are fully compatable with each other and no harm will come if they are mixed. Think about it, in a standard quart of Castrol GTX only about 25% of what's in that bottle is actualy real oil. The other 75% is additves (synthetics) for things like anti-foaming, detergents, anti-oxidizers, etc. Oil itself NEVER breaks down, it's the additives that get "used up".

Not only does the oil act as a barrier between the precious moving parts is is also a cleaner and a carrier which suspends the dirt and harmful particles allowing them to be carried to the oil filter to be removed. Obviously the filter cannot remove gases such as blow-by. The additives in the oil hold and suspend the harmfull gases, which turn to acid. There is a limited amount of holding ability that the additves contain. Once used up the "sponge" can no longer hold anymore and the excess acids start to adhear to vital metal parts like engine bearings. That's the reason for changing the oil.

Synthetics are NOT always 100% man made and some do contain a certain amount of oil in them. Synthetics are typicaly much longer strings of molecules that resist such things as heat and shearing from the transmission gears. For example I use the Castrol air cooled V-twin oil in my 17 year old FJ. It is air cooled and the two inside cylinders get very hot. This particular oil is belended for that very reason. On the other hand Jeff uses Castrol Superbike oil in his EX250. It is water cooled and the engine runs at a much more consistant temp, but the engine spins at 14K where the oil realy has to work hard and flow smoothly.

The key is to use what works best for you and your particular bike. If using GTX (or other brand) and changing it regular at 1K or 2K works for you then great. I would use GTX myself if my FJ was in better condition. Right now it needs some TLC and the synthetic helps it out. As far as Jeff's EX250, I realize there are many bikes capable of 14K. However, to get anything out of this little engine it must be run constantly between 10K and 14K, while larger bikes with much taller gearing can cruise at a quick clip at 6K to 8K.

In my profession there are certain instances where synthetics are neither cost effective or do any better of a job than conventional oil. As far as bikes go, I believe that synthetics for every day street use is a plus but not absolutely needed. Would I go back to conventional oil? Probably not, the benifits of synthetics are way to obvious in a bike application. If I were tight on $$$$ and $$$$ was an issue, then yes I would use GTX and just change it more often.

Pete
August 30th, 2002, 09:57 AM
I just ran across this discussion on another board.

http://forums.13x.com/showthread.php?s=94a728eab09f38867c0520b6cf43efac&threadid=14774

The Big Spank Daddy
August 30th, 2002, 10:52 AM
Very good thread. Take note that they are talking about Mobil 1 for cars and Mobil 1 for motorcycles. Absolutely positively do not put Mobil 1 for car engines in your bike. It will definitely cause clutch slippage. I checked out the Mobil 1 for bikes and they sell it at AutoZone. Several guys I've spoke to says it works great but it is not any cheaper than the Castrol or Amsoil so I saw no benifit to switching over.

Craig McCully
August 30th, 2002, 11:02 AM
Originally posted by Chris Donnelly:
Absolutely positively do not put Mobil 1 for car engines in your bike. It will definitely cause clutch slippage. I never experienced any clutch problems with the Mobil 1 15W-50 "car oil". Of course Mobil 1 doesn't want you to put the car stuff in your bike since they make "motorcycle specific" oil for twice the profit...I mean price. Take a look at the bottle and notice it doesn't have the energy conserving label.

[ August 30, 2002, 04:41 PM: Message edited by: Craig ]

sober1
August 30th, 2002, 10:34 PM
Chris,

You said that we should use what works best for us.

The acid eating away at the bearings and other gradual wear and degradation due to improper oil occurs slowly over a long peroid of time. How would I know which oil is best without waiting until my engine breaks and without tearing my bike apart to inspect the parts?

My bike:
GSX-R600
YR 2000
28K Miles
Street riding with 80% "around town" riding
In the city, I am hard on throttle 60% of the time with 30% of that redline shifting
Run above 8K RPM (except starting from stop or slow 1st gear speeds)
Oil change every 2K
Suzuki filter & KawaChem SEA 20W-50
Lately, 1/2 qrt added close to oil change time (Takes almost 4 qrts each change)

Advice appreciated

[ August 30, 2002, 11:43 PM: Message edited by: Scott Obermiller ]

The Big Spank Daddy
August 31st, 2002, 01:40 PM
I recommend Castrol R4 Super Bike oil for your application. Yes Iím biased towards Castrol products because they have given me good service for many years. Just a note, I run Mobil 1 in my two Pontiac Sunfires. I recommend the R4 Super Bike oil because of your high rpm use.

Here is what I would do.
1) Change to R4 and run it 2K miles and make note if it needs any in that time frame. Remember that there is still some old oil left after this first oil change.
2) Change the oil again using R4. This time the old (non R4) oil is probably diluted to less than 10%. Run another 2K and monitor the oil usage if any. If it has not used any oil then run it another 1K and then change it. I would not recommend running any longer than 3K between oil changes.

If the R4 oil is being consumed, and there are no leaks, try another brand and use the same procedure until you find one that works. In my opinion NO bike, or car for that matter, should use oil between oil changes.

Remember what I said about my FJ, 38K miles, 17 years old and it does not use a drop between 3K oil changes. Occasionally I may change it less than 3K if Iím going on a ride where it may go 300to 400 miles beyond my normal service interval. It has held up so well because the guy who had it before me changed the oil regularly. Iíve put almost 13K miles on this bike since the end of March and it has never used a drop oil in all that time.

sober1
September 1st, 2002, 05:12 PM
That makes sense. Now that I think about it, I have run Castrol GTX in my toyota 4x4 (22R straight four engine) since 30K and it is up to 171K now and still burns no oil.

I will make the switch and see what happens. As an FYI, I will also let you know how it turns out. I just hope they sell the stuff here in town...I guess I could always special order or get it off the web

Thanks for your input and setting me straight.

The Big Spank Daddy
September 1st, 2002, 05:37 PM
It should be easy to find. I've yet to see any bike shops here in Houston that did not have it.