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Thread: TSBA Leadership - Open Letter

  1. #26
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    Yeah, Jim, that's *your* definition. Why is it your call to force someone to turn off all avatars because you feel it's your God-given right to use whatever you want? I guess you're more important than they are?

    If you feel what I said was a "personal attack", then please report it to the admins or officers and have them start a thread in the officer's forum to get me to edit it. Frankly, if this is your definition, I can't imagine how anyone would ever disagree with you without it being called such.
    Brad Felmey

  2. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brad Felmey View Post
    Gripe, complain, whine, moan. *THIS* is why I quit as BBS admin. 10,000 monkeys banging on a keyboard, and 0 monkeys in agreement on how to do it better.

    "Even-handed" TOS enforcement? WTF does that even mean? I'll tell you what it means - every person on this board will have a different idea of what it means. It's absolutely impossible to draw a clear line that everyone (or hell, even 10%) will agree on. Those of you who have been in the Officer's forum know how almost impossible it is to get a consensus on anything at all.

    Jim - I like ya, but you're really throwing a b*tch-fit over an avatar? Really? I guess I'm wildly jealous that your life is so great that something this ridiculously small makes it to the top of your list. Whoop-de-doo.

    Let's see one of you guys come up with a sure-fire black-and-white definition.

    And of course another meaningless post.
    Albie



    Good, bad, I'm the guy with the gun.

    Dallas chapter VP
    You can e-mail me at albie1 at gmail dot com

  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brad Felmey View Post
    Yeah, Jim, that's *your* definition. Why is it your call to force someone to turn off all avatars because you feel it's your God-given right to use whatever you want? I guess you're more important than they are?
    I don't force anyone. They choose. That's the point.

    The flipside to your argument is "why should some morality police have such broad based, indiscriminate and arbitrary power over a secular, social motorcycle club?"

    And, anyway, what's so evil about a cartoon shilouette depection of a shovel handle leaning against a fat woman on all fours?

    I don't think I'm more important than anyone else here, I think I'm *equal*. With a notable mention that I actually DO ride, which is sort of the underlying reason for the club, right?

    If you feel what I said was a "personal attack", then please report it to the admins or officers and have them start a thread in the officer's forum to get me to edit it. Frankly, if this is your definition, I can't imagine how anyone would ever disagree with you without it being called such.
    It's not the disagreement, it's the attack on what you percieve me to consider important in my life.

    Any why should I report this to the officers? I can instead simply ask you to retract the comment.

    Seriously -- you know me well enough to know I don't care about your comment or take personal offence to it. But you were in violation of the ToS.

    See how ridiculous it is?


    2008 Buell 1125r - Boils Pasta, Steams Rice, Roasts Duc, Wins Tractor Pulls.
    2006 Buell XB12r - Bruising Ur Ego, Linguini Licker!
    2006 Honda ST1300 - No, I won't carry your extra whatever on the ride.
    2005 Suzuki DR-Z400SM

  4. #29
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    Back the fire truck up. Fact: Jim was contacted by a FW officer, i.e. an officer of his chapter, informing him that people found objection to it and if he could remove said avatar and by-line. He disagreed with the assessment. Without adding any subjective information to this post, just wanted to clear up that bit of misinformation.


  5. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by -=sean)=- View Post
    Back the fire truck up. Fact: Jim was contacted by a FW officer, i.e. an officer of his chapter, informing him that people found objection to it and if he could remove said avatar and by-line. He disagreed with the assessment. Without adding any subjective information to this post, just wanted to clear up that bit of misinformation.

    At which time Jim asked that those who disliked his images contact him directly to discuss it like gentlemen or for them to make a public "case" of it. The hard road seems well worn around these parts.
    Justin R (member # 2296)
    Subsiste Sermonem Statim

  6. #31
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    Jim, again, it's your definition. The issue is determining what constitutes a TOS issue. There is zero agreement on that, even in this thread. In fact, ask the folks in this thread whether what I did was a "personal attack" and see if you get agreement.

    We're volunteers, doing the best we can, and stuff like this is why it's hard to get someone to serve. It's the same reason, incidentally, that you stated you won't serve again. How's the shoe feel on *that* foot?
    Brad Felmey

  7. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hood Ornament View Post
    And of course another meaningless post.
    Much more meaningful and germaine than yours.
    Brad Felmey

  8. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crescendo View Post
    The problem is they pick and choose who they allow to get away with what. The rules don't apply the same to everyone.
    I can't say this is 100% true or not... but being that I run a forum with 15K+ members, I am attacked for this all the time. The fact is... I (or we moderators) can only respond and deal with posts either 1) we see and have issue with, or 2) those that others report to us.
    Mike N - Blog
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  9. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brad Felmey View Post
    It's the same reason, incidentally, that you stated you won't serve again. How's the shoe feel on *that* foot?
    I don't need to be an officer to plan and lead rides. To suggest that I don't serve the club as a result of that decision is just false.


    2008 Buell 1125r - Boils Pasta, Steams Rice, Roasts Duc, Wins Tractor Pulls.
    2006 Buell XB12r - Bruising Ur Ego, Linguini Licker!
    2006 Honda ST1300 - No, I won't carry your extra whatever on the ride.
    2005 Suzuki DR-Z400SM

  10. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brad Felmey View Post
    Much more meaningful and germaine than yours.
    Not true, your inability or refusal to comprehend the issue at hand leads you to make comments that have no bearing on the issue.
    Albie



    Good, bad, I'm the guy with the gun.

    Dallas chapter VP
    You can e-mail me at albie1 at gmail dot com

  11. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike N View Post
    I run a forum with 15K+ members,
    MikeN- is that forum member owned? If not, it can hardly be compared to this situation. Moderation of privately owned forums is up to the owner of that forum.
    Michael
    445whp LS3 Miata

  12. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hood Ornament View Post
    Not true, your inability or refusal to comprehend the issue at hand leads you to make comments that have no bearing on the issue.
    Silly me, I thought the issue at hand was the perceived inequitable application of TOS. I tried to address that by pointing out that it isn't black-and-white. I guess we were discussing Nicky Hayden's move to Ducati here?
    Brad Felmey

  13. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by jdugger View Post
    I don't need to be an officer to plan and lead rides. To suggest that I don't serve the club as a result of that decision is just false.
    You're splitting hairs, Jim. I *clearly* meant as an officer, and you did state that you would not serve again in that capacity due to negative feedback. I happen to think it's totally silly, because you've been the most active ride coordinator we've ever seen, but regardless, you still got smack for whatever reason when you were doing the best you could. That was my point. The other officers are in the same boat. Some members are unhappy and complaining that "nothing" is getting done, others are unhappy and complaining when something is done. It's no-win.
    Brad Felmey

  14. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike N View Post
    I can't say this is 100% true or not... but being that I run a forum with 15K+ members, I am attacked for this all the time. The fact is... I (or we moderators) can only respond and deal with posts either 1) we see and have issue with, or 2) those that others report to us.
    While I do understand where you are coming from and know that the mods can’t see everything, this seems to be a little bit of a copout in this situation. I feel that you would have to be wearing a blindfold not to see the amount of “sexually oriented” images on this site that IMO are far worse than the avatar in question.

    Not that it matters, but I could care less about those being on the board either.

    Gavin Williams

  15. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brad Felmey View Post
    The other officers are in the same boat. Some members are unhappy and complaining that "nothing" is getting done, others are unhappy and complaining when something is done. It's no-win.
    This is a good point. But it doesn't address a number of really unusual circumstances in the way this action was conducted:

    - Why was my officer's access not restored when requested?
    - What was the vote? How was it conducted?
    - Why a cartoon, and not so many of the other more aggregious examples of violations on the board?
    - Why does the original post of this example remain in line in a thread on the board but my avatar have to go?
    - Why did the only officers who contacted me have a sympathetic position?
    - Why was my compromise -- an offer to have the avatar WILLINGLY REMOVED and publically apologize (!) in exchange for a justification -- ignored?

    Brad,

    This is an extraordinary circumstance. It has highly unusual properties and original procedure. It deserves extraordinary justification.


    2008 Buell 1125r - Boils Pasta, Steams Rice, Roasts Duc, Wins Tractor Pulls.
    2006 Buell XB12r - Bruising Ur Ego, Linguini Licker!
    2006 Honda ST1300 - No, I won't carry your extra whatever on the ride.
    2005 Suzuki DR-Z400SM

  16. #41
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    Jim, the answers to your questions will have to come from those who are/were active in the discussion, but for whatever reason are absent here. Suffice to say it didn't happen in a vacuum.

    Some of your questions I simply don't know the answer to.
    Brad Felmey

  17. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brad Felmey View Post
    I tried to address that by pointing out that it isn't black-and-white. I guess we were discussing Nicky Hayden's move to Ducati here?

    Funny, it appeared to me that you were making ad hominem attacks.
    Albie



    Good, bad, I'm the guy with the gun.

    Dallas chapter VP
    You can e-mail me at albie1 at gmail dot com

  18. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hood Ornament View Post
    ad hominem attacks
    WTF!?! Did Albie just use Latin!!!

  19. #44
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    Am I still in Parkland with a concussion?

    Funny, I was using the A-Style logo as my avatar over on the Kawasaki forum I frequent. One of the moderators PM'd me and said he had gotten a few complaints and asked if I'd change it. I dont hang out there as much as before. I don't like prudes becuase if you pay attention long enough you find out that they are really extradorinarily hipocritical. But hay, it's entertainment.

    Anyway, given the the threads over in the off topic area I dont quite see how Jimbo's avatar crossed the line for this forum. We post up some pretty funny S on a regular basis. Should Jim's avatar been cencored? Personally, I don't think so. But at the moment I can't ride so I guess my vote doesnt count.

    Speaking of voting...I paid my $20 for membership. If this isnt a democracy, then what exactly did I pay $20 for? Is it being suggested that as a member of this club I don't count? why be a member then? Couple of things:
    transparancy works - open up the officers forum in read only mode. as an officer of this club why are you having conversations about this club that we the membership don't need to be prevy to? Planning a surpise birthday party for somebody? If you need to have a conversation and not share it with us: do it over the phone, via email or PM.

    This is a social club. We're not a biker gang. It isnt Sons of Anarchy and we arent going to be running a load of AKs up to Oklahoma anytime soon. Cut this S out and behave like it is what it is: a friggin tea party for grown ups.

    What I find extra funny about this whole thing and the reason I have trouble accepting the reality of it is: Brad and Jim are good friends. Their exchange has got to either be a CrashCrain post (ie pure fiction) or a really good RMS hose job on the rest of us.

    I'm really glad I've cut down on my forum time because S like this is a complete waste of my time.
    Jake

  20. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by tweek View Post
    I don't like prudes becuase if you pay attention long enough you find out that they are really extradorinarily hipocritical.
    Amazing how that works.
    Michael
    445whp LS3 Miata

  21. #46
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    I'm gonna say a bunch of stuff below that is honestly without emotional ties to the actual issue. My goal is to try to point out the answers without my opinion on the situation. Beer me sometime and I'll let you know what I think of this mess (you'll probably be surprised).

    Quote Originally Posted by jdugger View Post
    - Why was my officer's access not restored when requested?
    1) You were the subject of the debate, (other) officers already had a pretty good understanding of where you stood.
    2) You elected to be out of the forum. This removal decision was yours but not necessarily yours to "undo" -- get (re)elected if you want back in.

    Quote Originally Posted by jdugger View Post
    - What was the vote? How was it conducted
    The vote was regarding your avatar/tagline and whether it should be removed. Since it was conducted in the officer forum, the results are for the officers.

    The method in which it was conducted is a matter of discussion of the officers.

    Quote Originally Posted by jdugger View Post
    - Why a cartoon, and not so many of the other more aggregious examples of violations on the board?
    More than one person complained about this cartoon.

    Quote Originally Posted by jdugger View Post
    - Why does the original post of this example remain in line in a thread on the board but my avatar have to go?
    1) Nobody complained about the post in general
    2) Your avatar shows up in every one of your posts (what's your post count these days?)

    Quote Originally Posted by jdugger View Post
    - Why did the only officers who contacted me have a sympathetic position?
    Those officers were Ft. Worth and Dallas officers -- and the Dallas officers are still attached to Ft. Worth members (maybe at a subconscious level, but certainly both of these officers know you personally).

    There has been a huge stink in the past about cross-chapter officer-member interactions and (I'm guessing) other chapter officers were concerned about an explosive retaliation.

    Quote Originally Posted by jdugger View Post
    - Why was my compromise -- an offer to have the avatar WILLINGLY REMOVED and publically apologize (!) in exchange for a justification -- ignored?
    The officers that contacted you gave you the justification, you said it yourself. You were already aware of the concerns, so this was considered to be an empty offering on your part.

    Quote Originally Posted by jdugger View Post
    ...as it “promoted bestiality”, and was a violation of our TOS.
    Rob

    '84 VF500F
    '01 VFR800FI -- Too sporty for cruisers, too comfortable for squids.

  22. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by windsor View Post
    The vote was regarding your avatar/tagline and whether it should be removed. Since it was conducted in the officer forum, the results are for the officers.

    The method in which it was conducted is a matter of discussion of the officers.
    Being that the officers serve to represent the members, I would think a request for information on how the members are being served should be honored with full discloser. How else are we to know if they represent us the way we want to be represent?
    Michael
    445whp LS3 Miata

  23. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hood Ornament View Post
    Funny thing is, I don't EVER remember voting on a BBS admin. And yet I continually hear, if you don't like the way something is handled then elect someone you think will do a better job. Uh huh, OK.
    The "BBS Admin" hat is not a decision-making hat (not an officer seat), as already stated. The duties of "BBS Admin" are technical in nature and (theoretically) not part of the political structure. Think of it as a "hired gun on behalf of the collective TSBA". Currently, tech-savvy officers have volunteered to push the buttons associated with this duty.

    side note: since it isn't a recognized officer position in any chapter, there is no infrastructure in place to elect a warm body for this position.

    If you want this concept changed, press your case -- get your local chapter by-laws changed to formally define BBS Admin, how they are seated, what they do.
    Rob

    '84 VF500F
    '01 VFR800FI -- Too sporty for cruisers, too comfortable for squids.

  24. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miykl View Post
    Being that the officers serve to represent the members, I would think a request for information on how the members are being served should be honored with full discloser. How else are we to know if they represent us the way we want to be represent?
    You can freely ask how your officers voted and whether the the voting standards were pushed properly by your officers.
    Rob

    '84 VF500F
    '01 VFR800FI -- Too sporty for cruisers, too comfortable for squids.

  25. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miykl View Post
    FCC prime time broadcast TV allowable.
    For reference.

    http://www.fcc.gov/eb/oip/FAQ.html#TheLaw
    Michael
    445whp LS3 Miata

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