Lines and plans

tweek · #1 July 29th, 2008, 12:54 PM

I’ve been pretty scornful of the whole ‘racing line’ thing that some local clubs preach. However, I’m beginning to have some second thoughts and am curious to know what others think.

First, in Twist of The Wrist 2, Code makes a statement along the lines of “Any line that allows proper throttle control is a good line”. Proper throttle control, as he teaches it, is that once the bike is leaned over the throttle is being smoothly rolled on through the rest of the turn. My interpretation is that as long as the bike ends up on pavement (skips the jokes) we’re good to go. So what’s all the fuss?

One of the CSS guys pointed out that Code only said it was a good line – not necessarily a fast line.

During level 4 I sorta got chewed out for not hitting the reference points they had provided. This little discussion is what has started my reevaluation of what I thought I knew. So is there really one line and only one line?

In another of Code’s books (Soft Science of Road Racing) he talks about ride plans. This books isn’t as popular as TOW2, but it has some good stuff. But I’m curious about the idea of there being different plans to attack a corner with. One plan calls for maximum lean angle the whole way through the turn. Another plan trades a slower entry for a faster exit. I don’t have them memorized, but if there is only one line why would you need to chose different plans for a turn? Wouldn’t the line dictate the plan?

My next track day will be back at Cresson on the new track (where, yeah I demonstrated the go off the track on you azz plan). My plan now is to try and find the ‘fast line’ around the track and try to stay tight on it as much as possible. I’ll probably track down one of the coaches to get some help finding the fast line.

So considering that at this point I’m essentially just racing the clock – is there just one line? How does this play when you actually start racing? If there is only 1 line then how is it that riders are able to pass? Do things like exceeding the tire’s grip affect the line? Is sliding in a turn always slower? Can it be used to actually get a faster overall lap?

jdugger · #2 July 29th, 2008, 01:41 PM

You are over-thinking it.

Go have fun. Wear out some tires, but not your plastics or shift lever. If you aren't trying win a race, why would you care?

Oskar_Z28 · #3 July 29th, 2008, 01:57 PM

Look at the lines motogp / SBK guys are taking. There definately isn't one line to go fast.

#4 July 29th, 2008, 02:11 PM

Dugger's right. Howzabout you try to get comfy on the bike again and we talk about this later.

tweek · #5 July 29th, 2008, 02:55 PM

but if I don't think about this stuff what else am I going to do? Work? Good god man! That's just crazy talk.

jdugger · #6 July 29th, 2008, 03:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tweek

but if I don't think about this stuff what else am I going to do?

Ride this weekend and have a good time.

Jus10 · #7 July 29th, 2008, 03:51 PM

We had a short conversation about this at the monthly meeting.. too bad you weren't there.

tweek · #8 July 29th, 2008, 05:13 PM

between the elbow and work I've not gotten to do much but be grouchy. So much so that I've gone back on my ADD meds. Talk about the suck.

Anyway, August 23 you can provide a live demonstration. Leigh Ann and the kids want to see a race so we are planning on coming out.

So what was discussed?

Previously I had a very similar opinion to Oskar. However, the reason for that opinion deserves examination. Forget about racing for a moment and imagine that you are qualifing on an empty track. You want to be able to go around the turns as fast as possible. You, your bike, and the tires are all factors in what is possible. However, the turn is also a factor. Get fast enough and you begin having to deal with sets of turns because the speed you carry out of one affects the speed you enter the next. Some times that entrance happens really fast. Even MSR's Rattle Snake has an impact on slow riders. It has got to cause fast riders all sorts of stomache acid.

For one bike (say a crustly old Buell) with a rider of superior capabilities (ie one who one chop the throttle and the exact wrong moment) - how many different lines are really available to achieve the best time around the circuit? Will the line change if you change bikes? For example go out on a ZX10R and then go out on a 250GP bike.

Do race conditions really make that much of a difference? Ducati and Yamaha don't publish the numbers for their bikes, but right now it appears that Ducati has the strong bike. So why can't Stoner just pass Rossi the long way round? Rossi kept shutting Stoner down on the brakes because Rossi was sitting on the fast line.

Yeah - I'm probably way over thinking things. But whatelse is there really to do on a Tuesday afternoon? Talk about lame @ss 9/11 conspiracies? Discuss how NASCAR is going to ruin racing? Watch bunch of crusty old men brag about how far they can ride in a single day? Rather bench race thank you.

Zippy · #9 July 29th, 2008, 05:18 PM

How about update your blog, last update 7/9/08. That's ancient in blog time!

tweek · #10 July 29th, 2008, 05:46 PM

the technical blog - don't want to. I'm working on setting up a training business and for now I want to put most of my technical thinking in to building my content out.

the motorcycle side - guess I could......

But it's more fun to bug you guys.

Oskar_Z28 · #11 July 29th, 2008, 08:08 PM

OK, I suck at typing so I won't write a book. But if you look at physics, then definately there is a best way to go around the track that will yield best time. However, we are not perfect and what works for me may not work for you. I might be better mid corner than you. You might be better on the brakes with you masive brembo caliper / rotor mix, then I may be better on the driveout while you might have more top speed. It is all relative. I find myself riding up the *** on fast people on 600s / 1000s right after they pass me on the straight. I also feel like most people go super slow at track days around the last right hander at TWS where the tire wall used to be. I also almost highsided myself 2 or 3 times coming out of the carousel at TWS (therefore I take a different line now that will allow me to acclereate wile my bike is more up and lower gear. See there are many things that you need to consider. It really depends on you personally and what works for you. I sometimes overthink things too instead of doing them, but being an engineer I'd rather calculate things first before I crash, rather than crash and say - " that was the limit".

Backmarker · #12 July 29th, 2008, 08:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tweek

...So is there really one line and only one line?...

No. Watch the lines Bayliss uses vs. Corser or Checa or just about anyone else really. Figure out what your strengths are. Is it late braking, corner exit speed, carrying speed thru the corner? Each of these strengths demand a different line thru a corner. And keep in mind, track days are undoubtedly the best way to learn to "ride faster". But racing is totally different. If you think you're faster than the rider in front of you and you're on similarly powered bikes, you're going to have to figure out a way around them. That means you'll have to take a line that perhaps isn't your strength. That gives you something to work on.

#13 July 30th, 2008, 01:05 PM

Jake,
In a real race environment, competitors aren't just balancing their strengths and weaknesses. They're evaluating the competition's also.

Does the racer in front of me always take a wide line into T4? Can I put my bike inside him to intimidate him? Is T4 so close to T5 that this will cause a problem in T5?

THE LINE is theoretical. It's a geometric representation of the shortest/ highest speed path of travel. Unfortunately, the line is constantly modified by:

1) Your skill
2) Conditions (weather, temps, etc)
3) The track (bumps, patches, pitch, etc.)
4) Bike setup (turn-in on the brakes, stability at speed, etc.)
5) Racer planning and execution
6) Competitor's skill
7) Enough other variables that a person could write a series of books.

Oskar_Z28 · #14 July 30th, 2008, 01:15 PM

I was just watching SBK videos and noticed the line differences. Take a look at the SBK Nurburgring races T1. The lines are extremely different for several top runners. This is probalby the most extreme example that I have seen on that level in recent years (go to www.worldsbk.com -> videos. Beware of Spoilers.

Jus10 · #15 July 30th, 2008, 03:30 PM

Jake,

Due to lack of PW'n time I havent been able to complete my opinion but Andre said pretty much all of it.

During a race you can almost count on someone being in the line you worked on all day at the last track day. Different bikes certainly handle different. A motard, RS125, and GSXR600 are all going to take different lines. Skill and bike setup will cause the same bike to be faster on different lines.

You have to learn the track by learning each corner then putting the corners together as a complete circuit. You cant learn one line through the whole thing just your limits through each corner noting break markers, bumps, and other factors that will limit or improve your times. Put this all together with what you observe the rider in front of you doing and do whats necessary to get around them. Once your out front your view changes. Your still not taking "the fast line". Your taking a fast line that will defend the lead.

It isnt chess but takes more skills than just throttle control.

#16 July 30th, 2008, 03:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jus10

It isnt chess but takes more skills than just throttle control.

You're right. It isn't chess. In chess:

1) You get a LONG TIME to make a decision and make a move.
2) You get to take the move back if you screw up.
3) Chess players seldom end up in the hospital.
4) It doesn't cost much when chess players drop a piece.